So I often feel like I spend more time thinking about the seeming inconsistencies with the tenets of Biblical philosophy than I do about all the happy good things about being a Christian. Every time I run into one of these troubling questions I write it down, think about it, and usually let it simmer. Nevertheless, I frequently go back and see how my viewpoint has changed. While I normally am able to reconcile to at least a passable extent most of the initial disconnect I encounter, there are two questions which I feel have plagued my thoughts more frequently than others:
Hebrews 12:7 states that we must "endure hardship as discipline. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons." We can only interpret this, as far as I can see, in one of two ways. The first implies that the father causes this hardship in the same way that the father causes discipline. If this were so, then how can we say hardships (that is discouragement, depression, anger etc.) are not then caused by God but by Satan? Who is then the father? The other interpretation is that God allows hardship as a matter of necessity so through hardship, we may be disciplined and become "true sons." Although this interpretation seems to be more in line with conventional credo, it is not any more comforting. The crux of this interpretation stands on the fact that hardship, like discipline, is absolutely essential. If we are to believe that all hardship is born of Satan, then are we to say that Satan is essential? Does there need to be a BAD for every GOOD or is BAD only the absence of GOOD? If there is no hardship, then there is no discipline, and thus no true sonship. How then does hardship not come from God for, without it, we could not be called "sons of God"?
And even more troubling in my mind:
Opponents of atheism claim that atheism inherently diminishes the value of human life. The claim of absolute nihility of God and therefore of meaning or purpose in life certainly supports this accusation. After all, if the forces-that-be orchestrated matter to, by an infinite series of coin flips, give one species on one planet in one galaxy to possess an itching need to know why it has been given such a gift and the search ultimately come up fruitless, then indeed life is rather pointless. Nevertheless, the question then is doesn't Christianity trivialize the human life even more? Doesn't scripture say that "you are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes"? If our ultimate goal is reunion with God and that reunion is only achieved by corporal death, are we not then diminishing the value of human life? The mothers on the news who intentionally kill their young children are seen, rightfully, so as abominations of society. However what can be said about the mother who, rather than risking her children growing up and turning away from God, children who will stumble in the righteous race and are very likely to be sucked in by the world, pays the ultimate sacrifice by ensuring her children's salvation while sacrificing her own?
These thoughts have been bothering me a lot. The second one is largely from this man's refutation of Lee Strobel's A Case for Faith (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_doland/strobel.html#obj4).
Any input would be appreciated!
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3 comments:
Hmm...good things to think about. First thoughts (will come back to this after my killer exam tomorrow):
In regard to the Hebrews issue, my first question is what is the relationship between hardship and Satan?
I don't think the Bible ever says hardships are born of Satan. The Bible does say God does not tempt (James 1:13), but never anything about God not causing hardship. As you stated, Hebrews 12:7 (and Acts 14 where Paul talks about hardship) tell us this very thing.
In regard to atheism, I personally don't believe *atheism* diminishes the value of human life. In fact, my views of the "value of human life" are still in question. As the Bible does imply that human life is important (e.g. from the commandments of "do not murder", Psalms 139, etc.), I also imply from Scripture that our heavenly life is even more important (for instance that "we are a mist" verse you quoted).
Anyway, if Christians are saying that without God life has no purpose, I don't necessarily agree. It depends on what you consider as "purposeful" which is largely conditioned by society. Some people find purpose in volunteering at Habitat for Humanity while others find purpose in isolating themselves in a hut and writing things like "Walden: Life in the Woods".
God tells us that Christians were chosen and predestined "according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory." But I'm not sure about everyone else.
However, I do believe that life without God means living life without love. (For the Bible does say "God is love.") Now THAT is something I have wondered for a very long time. Is that even possible? Because if going to Hades means that we're separated from God that means we'd be separated from love. Still thinking on that one.
Hallo :)
A few thoughts come to mind first (I haven't thought about them at all angles so feel free to counter-argue if these don't really enhance the conversation).
In regards to your second thought about Christianity diminishing the value of human life.... I think your right yes, human life has no value. We are after all made of dust. But even though we are dust, and disappear like mist, God found us valuable enough to send His one and only son to die for us. Why go through so much trouble for dust? I think this is what gives human life its value (so you're only right if God sending Jesus to die for us is a lie)... that God cared for us. He created us and He sustains us. Without Him, human life would indeed be of little value.
Why did He create us? What value are we to Him that he not only sent His son but continues to sustain us? The conventional answer (and one which I do agree with) is that God wants us to choose whether or not we will worship Him. Therefore I must disagree with Kirsten when she states that non-Christians do have purpose. I feel that our purpose is to worship God. Without Him we have no value; so to ignore the reason of our value is to loose sight of our purpose. However, this doesn't mean non-Christians can't find fulfillment in this earthly life .. habitat for humanity is purpose-full. In fact non-Christians can even be used by God when they are not seeking (ex. Rahab the prostitute who hides the Israelites in her home). But I do think that, in light of eternity, non-Christians are finding purpose in the wrong venues. So what if they make a difference in the world by helping at habitat for humanity? They are going to hell regardless of how good they are in this earth if they do not bow with worship to God.
One question that might be worth considering though... if God created us to love Him by our choice, then why would He send us to hell if we decide not to worship Him? It would seem that we almost don't have a choice aight? Because if we don't, than we go to hell... and who earnestly wants that? A choice is when I have the ability to make an A or a C yet still pass... The choice here is how much will I decide to study. When I am struggling between a C and an F, the choice is still the same.. although it is possible to study and still end up failing. So then I didn't have the choice... all the studying was in vain.. because it didn't make any difference. anyhow, I feel I am deviating from the point.
In regards to first question.. I do think God does allow us to go through hardship but sometimes I also think He is the source of the hardship. Some hardship comes from our disobedience to Christ (consequence of sin). This form of hardship I would classify is born of Satan.. because if he didn't exist, we wouldn't have sinned. I am not sure I understand what is the big deal with stating that some hardship is born of Christ. But I do think it is necessary to make point that some hardship is born of Satan. Yet, both can be used for discipline and growth (so Satan can be defeated even when he does what he is best at doing).
Also, I think there is a bad for every good. Prior to the existence of Satan, the absence of good was not evil because evil didn't exist. In fact, likely the absence of good didn't exist either.. everything was good. Once Lucifer was thrown to hell, evil became existent and there now exists an evil for every good. Turning it around... if God didn't exist, then you could say that bad is the absence of good... but God exists so I don't think you can say that.
Lastly (and at this point out of order)... if such a mother was so concerned about bringing a kid in the world that would possibly end up in hell, she shouldn't have had the kid in the first place because murder is a sin... Unless there is rape involved, she wasn't forced to have the kid. But most importantly, this was an argument in regards to the value of human life... the kid doesn't belong to the mother... the kid is God's. God created the kid and just used the mother as a venue of birth into the world. When the mother takes the life of the kid, thinking she is doing the kid a service, she is only warring against God...who created the kid so that the kid would have free choice to worship Him or not.
Ahhh. I'm having a hard time in the context switch. So let's first examine:
The Value of Human Life...
It seems the main question is "Does Christianity demean life"? Assuming we can say it does not, then
a second, very natural question arises "Does Christianity hold a lower value on life than other worldviews and specifically atheism." (I will have to wait *to try* to address this second one. And of course, I'm totally ignoring your first question (for now) too.)
First, lets look at Dust and Vapor. We are dust. However, it is dust that has been personally touched, blessed, breathed upon, and declared to be super good by the Creator. Also, God takes this common dirt and infuses it with His own image. Humble and holy. So, Dust in the Wind? Yes, but holy dust. The "vapor" concept is meant to emphasize our utter dependence on God, and in context supports the meaningfulness of human existence by showing that small decisions like going here or there are important enough to be significant. It's not a vapor that is unimportant.
Now, value itself is the importance or worth relative to some standard or similarly compared entity. Question So within the pale of orthodox Christianity, who sets this standard on mankind? In Genesis 1, Jewish and Christian believers cling to the fact that God declares His 6th day creation, people, to be very good. God also infuses into us His image. By the definitions extracted from the Bible, nothing is greater than God himself. So His declaration of these 2 facts sets the Human life above all others in terms of value. So, though mankind derives this from scripture, God is the one setting the standard.
Then there's the second tablet of the law (10). These laws apply specifically to people and codify required behavior, though from the start we see most of these in play (e.g., Cain and Able). However, we're not shown exactly these same principle with the animals. These laws in a practical sense give human life and human living greater value. Now these simple laws should hedge one from leaping to "childhood death = heaven". For we are not given the responsibility to decide when a person dies. Therefore, if someone comes to this erroneous conclusion, he has bypassed some basic tenants of God's Law.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I disagree that our ultimate goal is reunion with God via corporeal death. This misunderstands the premise of Christianity. Our ultimate goal is to glorify God. So then the question is, how is that done? Here we loop back to the above. We serve Him in obedience to His commands and particularly the top 2 as spoken by that inquisitive young man long ago: "Love God totally and fully. Love you neighbor as you would yourself." These encapsulate the ultimate goal of Christians.
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